Fort instance:

1. DSB´s "strike point" is at least 2.5 km too much forward, towards Snizhne (Pervomaiske) were Bellingcat stated that had been the "launch point" ("of Russian 53. Brigade´s telar"...).

2. DSB supposes, that one motor would have been working during the fall, and the plane had turned heavily to the left during the fall.

However, the flight data: the emergency location transmitter ELT that registered the moment on maximal deceleration -2.3 g and the speed during three following se-conds, tell, that the plane, or the part of it, where the ELT was fixed, was in free drag fall in that moment. No motor was working when the cockpit was struck loose. This means also that we can calculate rather accurate, (from) where espacially the cockpit package should fall.

3. Connected "packages" of tons of metal debris, like lower forward gargo floor, "should have fallen backwards from the strike point"  from 900 km/h speed in 10 km height according to DSB!

4. DSB knew absolutely nothing about Soviet BUK and other missile systems, when it was preparing its first "report" 2015, before Russian organizations made some cor-rections. It is a civil highway accidend research group working here for The Hague city criminal criminal court. Court has no right to accuse states. It must find personal shooters or bombers who have killed citizens on Netherlands to make progress in its work. It has not made real progress in this task.

5. The only presented by researchers missile debris is of type 9M38, which had been decommissioned several years before in Russia by mititary administration, but it was sill legal in Ukraine. The debris was not given to Russian manufacturer, but they say they know everything about the missile accordin to the serial nimber.

[19.11.2022: The "Court" has replaced the hit point in its "solution" 10.11.2022 full 10 kilometers earlier, keepind the "shooting place" "determined" by Bellingcat unchanged.
Bellingcat´s "shooting place" is absolutely impossible this new strike point and and the only found missile debris 9M38.

https://criminalfilesmh17.prosecutionservice.nl/storyline ]

Screenshot%202022-11-22%20at%2007-02-35%

In some Bellingcat/DSB flaps there is a "turbo-free fall": the plane is said to have fallen FASTER THAN THE FREE FALL TIME FROM 10000m: 45s, in this picture "39s.

http://forumupload.ru/uploads/0016/23/c6/63/t15334.png

That is not the real strike poin, but "DSB_Strike_Point".

 

http://mh17replica.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=331&p=14#p21385

Risto_Koivula,_Tampere

Dutch DSB and JIT have a wrong strike point location of the BUK missile to MW17 airplane. It is about 4 - 5 km too far to Southeast (forwards). It is impossible for a 10 tons´ compact metal debris "package" too fall down from 10000 m height and 250/m speed within 2km´s distance.I can prove with their own information from the "report", that it needs about 6000 m distance to fall down.

https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/media/attachment/2019/1/10/prem_rapport_mh_17_en_interactief2.pdf

 

The real strike point is about at the left side of the picture in "height" of the word "Hrabove" (its administration building).

2.10 Wreckage and impact information

2.10.1 Wreckage distribution

Wreckage from flight MH17 was discovered spread over a large area near the towns of Rozsypne and Hrabove in eastern Ukraine.The main wreckage site was located 8.5 km on a bearing of 080° from the last known position of the aircraft in flight. On the accident site, a large amount of photographs was made, which allowed identifi-cation of certain aircraft parts, including preliminary assessments of localization and the nature of damage on the fuselage skin and the engines. The aircraft wreckage, identified from the on-site photographs and satellite images, consisted of many large and small pieces distributed over an area of approximately 10 km by 5 km (figure 6). Fuselage pieces, cargo and baggage were scattered throughout the wreckage site. There were many additional unidentified pieces that are not shown in the figure. For easy reference the wreckage site has been divided into sections as shown in

https://www.tiede.fi/comment/3121054#comment-3121054

13:20:05 ... 13:20:06 ELT registered a 2g:n longitudinal acceleration. The cockpit was loose, disconnected from the fuselage.

https://www.tiede.fi/comment/3127339#comment-3127339

The cockpit has flown 5000 - 6000 m when its drag has been -2.0g at the disconnection moment. (It is in reality -2.3 g, HM)

This was a preliminary calqulation with simple values and supposing that the ELT emergency Location transmitter had been fixed on the cockpit, which is a wrong presupposition, but is guiding to right direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)

Drag depends on the properties of the fluid and on the size, shape, and speed of the object. One way to express this is by means of the drag equation:

F_{D}\,=\,{\tfrac {1}{2}}\,\rho \,v^{2}\,C_{D}\,A

mdv/dt = mv´(t) = - ρACv²(t)/2 = - cv²(t) = the drag force

v´(t)/v²(t) = - c/m = constant = -2.0g/vo² = -20ms⁻²/(250ms⁻¹)² = - (3125m)⁻¹ = -k

= - ρAC/m/2

m/(AC) is called "ballistic coefficient.

Integrating implicitely:

-v⁻¹(t) = -k(t - to), where to is integation constant, which gives

v(t) = k⁻¹(t - to)⁻¹

v(0) = 250ms⁻¹ = vo = -k⁻¹to⁻¹, which gives

to = -k⁻¹vo⁻¹ = - vo/(2g) = - 250ms⁻¹(20ms⁻²)⁻¹ = - 12.5s.

The distance d(t) at time t:

d(t) = int v(t)dt = k⁻¹[ln (t - to) - ln (0 - to)] = k⁻¹ ln (1 - t/to) = 3125m ln (1 + t/12.5s)

At the fall the same c/m = k = (3125m)⁻¹ can be used. (It can be regarded to be constant in trajectory direction.)

Now w(0) = 0, and the gravitation acceleration downwards dw(t)/dt = -g.

Now

m dw(t)dt = mw´(t) = mg - cw²(t),

w´(t)/(w²(t) - mg/c) = c/m = k, which is taken from the former task.

Let´s define still one coefficient:

k/g = p² = c/(mg), p = sqrt⁻¹(31250) m⁻¹s = 176.8⁻¹m⁻¹s

(m in two meanings: the mass and meter...)

w´(t)/(w²(t) - p⁻²) = gp²:

- p artanh (p w(t)) = (t - t1) gp²,

where t1 = 0 from w(0) = 0.

w(t) = p⁻¹ tanh(gpt) = 176.8ms⁻¹tanh (t /17.68s)

The fall height (from the top)

h(t) = int (w(t))dt = g⁻¹p⁻²ln cosh (gpt) = k⁻¹ln cosh(gpt) = 3125m ln cosh(t/17.68s)

For "larger" x: ln cosh x > x - sqrt2 = x - 0,693.

3125m (t/17.68s - 0.693) = 10000m => t /17.68s = 3.2 0.693= 3.893 =>

T = 68.8s IS THA FALL TIME.

In this time the cockpit goes in horisontal direktion distance

d(T) = 3125m ln (1 + 68.8s/12.5s) = 5851 m

***

DSB says the wind speed was 18 m/s from direction 210.

The transversal dispalement from wind can also be calculated by drag formula by "changing the drag direction" to positive.

mv´(t) = ρAC(v(t) - v1)²/2 = c(v(t) - v1)², where v1 = 18m/s

v´(t)/(v(t) - v1)² = c/m = constant (from the first task) = 20ms⁻²/(250ms⁻¹)² = (3125m)⁻¹ = k

- (v(t) - v1)⁻¹ = k (t - to)

v(t) = - k⁻¹/(t - to) - v1 = - 3125m/(t - to) + 18.5m/s

v(0) = 0 = 3125m/to + 18.5m/s

=> to = -3125m /18.5ms⁻¹ = - 169 s

v(t) = 18.5m/s - 3125m/(t + 169s)

The speed in horizontal direction at falling point on earth

v(69s) = 18.5m/s - 3125m/(169 + 69)s = 5.4m/s (acceptable),

d(t) = int v(t)dt = t v1 - k⁻¹ [ln(t - to) - ln to] = t v1 - k⁻¹ ln (1 - t/to)

= 69s x 18.5 m/s - 3125m ln (1 + 69/163)

= 1276,5 m - 1069,9 m = 207m  FROM WIND.

PS: In this transversal to the trajectory plane direction the projection area A in ρAC = c can be different, for instance double to that in plane normal to trajectory.

If it is double, then k -> 2k = (1562.5m)⁻¹ ,  ja to -> to/2 = 85.5s.

Then d(T) = 69s x 18.5m/s - 1562.5m ln(1 + 69s/85.5s) = 352m from that same transversal wind 18,5 m/s.

(I have calculated with other means that absolute maximun transversal to the original flight line trasition from maximum wind (about 50 m/s) is about 600 m for the fuselage or cockpit.)

http://mh17replica.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=331&p=14#p21441

... The measured drag deceleration constant 2.0g ... 2.6g of the cockpit, when it had disconnected fronm fuselage, is taken from DSB "report" data. Measurings on speed in first seconds confirms formula v(t) = 3125m/(t + 12.5s):

0 s  250m/s

1 s  230m/s

2 s  211 m/s

If the drag deceleration had been - 2.6 g, then

c/m = 2.6g/vo² =26ms⁻²/(250ms⁻¹)² = (2403m)⁻¹ = -k, and

to = -k⁻¹vo⁻¹ = - vo/(2.6g) = - 250ms⁻¹(26ms⁻²)⁻¹ = -9.6s.

Speed horizontally:  v(t) = 2403m /(t + 9.6s),

and transalation horizontally: d(t) = 2403m ln (1 + t/9.6s)

In fall cvonstant  p = sqrt⁻¹(2430m x 10m/s²) = 155⁻¹s⁻¹.

Falling speed w(t) = p⁻¹ tanh(gpt) = 155ms⁻¹tanh (t /15.5s),

And falling height (from top): h(t) = k⁻¹ln cosh(gpt) = 2403m ln cosh(t/15.5s)  => 2403m (t/15.5s - 0.693)

=> The falling time T:   2403m (T/15.5s - 0.693) = 10000m.   

=> T = (10000/2403 + 0.693) 15.5 s =  75 s.

The distace of cockpit from strike D = 2403m ln (1 + 75/9.6) = 5230 m.

 

http://mh17replica.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=331&p=15#p21442

Alex написал(а):

Risto_Koivula,_Tampere написал(а):

    Dutch DSB and JIT have a wrong strike point location of the BUK missile to MW17 airplane.

    The real strike point is about at the left side of the picture in "height" of the word "Hrabove" (its administration building).

Almaz-Antey gives distance 25.5 km from Snizne (if shot from there, which Almaz does not belive). It is not drawn on right location, but the text is more important.

http://forumupload.ru/uploads/0016/23/c6/63/t799783.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsohFzbJ-vs&t=685s

http://mh17replica.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=331&p=15#p21454

  • nl.pngAlex
  • Заблокирован

Screenshot%202022-11-22%20at%2007-03-04%

Screenshot%202022-11-22%20at%2007-03-16%

http://forumupload.ru/uploads/0016/23/c6/63/t393036.jpg

Screenshot%202022-11-22%20at%2007-03-32%

http://forumupload.ru/uploads/0016/23/c6/63/t630967.png

 

http://forumupload.ru/uploads/0016/23/c6/63/t559408.png

 

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/

Map of a Tragedy: How MH17 Came Apart Over Ukraine

The Wall Street Journal cataloged and mapped some of the debris of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which fell across three Ukrainian villages after the Boeing 777 was brought down on July 17, allegedly by a surface-to-air missile.

Read the related story »

Reporting by Jon Ostrower in Washington, D.C., Alexander Kolyandr, Margaret Coker and Paul Sonne in Ukraine

Interactive by Stuart A. Thompson / The Wall Street Journal


Screenshot%202022-11-22%20at%2007-13-14%

Renée Rigdon/The Wall Street Journal

First and worst lie: It was not USA that said the missile was shot from Snizne, but it was BELLINGCAT.

What USA recognized was "old fashioned Soviet BUK system ("Gadfly, Gainful") tracking (radar) radioation. They did and do not where the telar was with less than 100 km accuracy. Aand Bellingcat does not know anything

https://www.ibtimes.com/biden-mh17-blow … rm-1632062

" U.S. officials have said ouU.S. officials have said outright that Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down with a surface-to-air missile, but are unsure of the missile’s origin.

Vice President Joe Biden said during an appearance in Detroit that it appears MH17 was “shot down, not an accident. Blown out of the sky,” and other American officials confirmed that a missile was fired at the Boeing 777, but are unsure who shot the missile.

A senior U.S. official told CNN that just before MH17 crashed, a radar system noted a surface-to-air missile system tracking an aircraft, and a second system saw a heat signature. By analyzing the trajectory of the missile, investigators can try to pinpoint the source of the attack.

... "

The crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been extraordinarily public. Investiga-tors of aircraft accidents typically cordon off the scene immediately after a crash, and tightly control access for media and others to avoid disturbing the debris.

Because Flight 17 fell in a war zone - across farm fields and homes near where pro-Russia separatists are fighting the Ukraine government - control of the wreckage has been chaotic, and the comparatively sanitized photos typically released by aviation safety officials have been replaced by thousands of images distributed across wire services and social media.

Mapping that wreckage is intended to illustrate how Flight 17 may have come down and the geographical challenges of conducting an investigation in a war zone.

Hrabove

 

Screenshot%202022-11-22%20at%2006-43-40%

1. Vertical Tail

The jet's vertical tail with the Malaysia Airlines logo lies just down the road from the aft fuselage section to which it was once attached.

2. Aft Fuselage and Horizontal Tail Structure

One of the most intact pieces of Flight 17 is a portion of the aft fuselage of the Boeing 777. This rear part, which attaches to the rest of the jet's body behind the passenger cabin, landed upside down next to a road in Hrabove, near what was left of the connection between the jet’s horizontal tail, a wing on the tail that points the nose. One of the carbon-fiber-composite horizontal tails was severed and found roughly 1,200 feet away in a grazing field.

3. Center Structure

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/main-debris.png
http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/final/HRABOVE_12.jpg

The single largest and most concentrated debris field is along a roadside in Hrabove more than five miles east of the western edge of the documented debris field. The underside of the wings is visible in the wreckage, identifiable by access holes used by manufacturing and maintenance crews to work inside the fuel tanks. In the charred debris field are parts of both of the jet's Rolls-Royce engines and a major structure called the center wing box that connects both wings to the fuselage and the well that holds the main landing gear. The landing gear was tucked inside the jet when it was cruising at 33,000 feet.

4. Right Rear Door Frame

A cattle pasture in Hrabove is littered with pieces of the jet's fuselage skin. A part of the right side of the rear passenger cabin at the last set of the jet’s doors sits mangled, its door missing. The skin shows the identity of the Boeing 777, with the Malaysian registration 9M-MRD.

5. Left Wingtip

The remains of the left wingtip, with visible signs of what appear to be shrapnel or puncture damage, sits severed from the rest of the wings, which fell and burned more than a half mile away.

6. Horizontal Tail

The carbon-fiber-composite horizontal tail landed a few feet away from the remains of the wingtip near a small pond. Partially covered in mud, the tail was pulled from the nearby pond, according to one photographer.

7. Cargo Door Frame

Scattered pieces of the rear fuselage, like this one around the aft cargo bay, litter a field in Hrabove a half-mile from the largest concentration of debris containing the charred remains of the jet's center structure and wings.

8. Crew Rest Bunks

On long-range flights like those connecting Southeast Asia to Europe, cabin crews use rest bunks to work in shifts. Malaysia Airlines installed its berths underneath the floor of the 777 at the front of the rear cargo bay. The under-floor bunks and their contents landed in a field about 1,800 feet from the main debris site in Hrabove.

Rozsypne

Screenshot%202022-11-22%20at%2006-44-01%

9. Cockpit and Lower Nose

The Boeing 777’s cockpit and lower nose section landed in a sunflower field in Rozsypne, approximately 1.6 miles from the cargo floor section to which it was once attached and nearly four miles from Hrabove. The remains of the flight deck, its floor, displays and pilot controls were strewn nearby. Personal effects from the passengers and crew litter the site.The jet’s avionics components and wiring from the under-floor electronics bay were crushed into the nose landing gear, which became separated while it was tucked up into the forward wheel well.

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/cockpit-lower-nose.png
http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/final/452428560.jpg

Petropavlivka

 

Screenshot%202022-11-22%20at%2006-44-27%

10. Lower Forward Cargo Floor

The jet’s lower forward cargo floor landed nearly five miles from the main debris field in Hrabove on a side road in the town of Petropavlivka. Local residents collected debris littered across the neighborhood and deposited it on this section of the aircraft that was once part of the forward cargo bay. Bundles of wires, air ducting, the nose landing-gear bay door and even demolished drink carts now sit on top of the silver rollers that make up the lower belly of the Boeing 777.

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/lower-fuselage.pnghttp://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/final/PROBE_GRAPHIC_2.jpg

**

http://mh17replica.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=331&p=15#p21454

Alex, Заблокирован

https://youtu.be/acd_67jrXxM

Отредактировано Alex (2021-10-22 01:07:05)

**

Автор: us.pngAlex, Заблокирован

Risto_Koivula,_Tampere написал(а):

That "DSB strike point" is no radar poit at all,but it is a calcuated by the radar ekstra- polation for following signal of the airplane. Almaz-Antey say the former point is the point where the airplane was observed "to be in disintegraion". The distance of radar points is 10 seconds which means, that on earth it was 2.5 km, because the plane was flying 250m/s. The real strike point is two poits, 5 m backwards from "DSB strike point".

230097.jpg

**

Автор: gb.pngoper, Участник

oper написал(а):

Ты можешь при помощи своей программы определить стартовые условия для упавших фрагментов ?

Alex написал(а):

E-mail oper

Автор: fi.pngRisto_Koivula,_Tampere, Участник

uschen написал(а):

Risto_Koivula,_Tampere написал(а):

The most modern FDR systems incorporate an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT)

http://mh17.webtalk.ru/viewtopic.php?pid=86533#p86533

yv1SH.jpg
310527.jpg

OK, the signal can be from fuselag ELT. But it is no better for Bellingcat / DSB / JIT false interpretations.

If the signal is from fuselag ELT, it does not give the strike moment of the missile, but IT GIVES THE MOMENT WHEN THE LAST MOTOR (on the right side) STOPPED WORKING.

The broken cockpit can have been still connected to the fuselage pressed by the drag force 2.3x10m/s²x10000kg = 230kN = 23Mp = 23 "ton".

The cockpit falls without gliding, but the fuselage has gliding flight in addition to free fall under drag. An undamaged Boeing 787 under guinance can fly in glide flight ten times longer without motors from that height and speed.

This is as valid as before.

The accelerations during explosion are not here useful. Explosion as such did not wake up ELT of longitudinal deceleration (acceleration), it was activated from drag deleleration when when cockpit was disconnected from fuselage. Despite decele-ration 2 ... 2.6 g, speeds where measured. We can compare them with theoretical functions:

Time, s   Measured  v, m/s  v´(0) = 2.0 g   v´(0) = 2.6 g        v´(0) = 2.3g

                           v(t) = 3125 m/(t + 12.5s)    v(t) =  v(t) = 2403m /(t + 9.6s)   v(t) = 2717,4m/(t + 10.87s)

   0                 250                    250                250                     250,0

   1                 230                     231               226                      229,8

   2                 211                     215               207                       211,1

According to Newton´s (first and) second law and his drag law,for a body moving in a dragging fluid

v´(t)/v²(t) = constant = v´(0)/v²(0) = 2.3g/vo² = c/m  = 23m⁻¹/250² = (2717,4m)⁻¹, when no extra forces influence.  c =ρAC/2.

mdv/dt = mv´(t) = - ρACv²(t)/2 = - cv²(t) = the drag force

v´(t)/v²(t) = - c/m = constant = -2.3g/vo² = -23ms⁻²/(250ms⁻¹)² = - (2717m)⁻¹ = -k

Integrating implicitely:

-v⁻¹(t) = -k(t - to), where to is integation constant, which gives

v(t) = k⁻¹(t - to)⁻¹

v(0) = 250ms⁻¹ = vo = -k⁻¹to⁻¹, which gives

to = -k⁻¹vo⁻¹ = - vo/(2.3g) = - 250ms⁻¹(23ms⁻²)⁻¹ = - 10.87s.

The distance d(t) at time t:

d(t) = int v(t)dt = k⁻¹[ln (t - to) - ln (0 - to)] = k⁻¹ ln (1 - t/to) = 2717,4m ln(1 + t/11.87s)

(The density of air ρ depends on height: in 10000m it is about 0.5kg/m³, on sea level it is about 1.0kg/m³. We use now the former. If we use the latter for the horizontal fall, it means longer fall time T and longer fall flight D.)

When we know a (trajectory) constant in one point of a trajectory, we know it in every point.

In this case we know at the disconnection point t = 0 both the speed v(0) = 250 m/s and the acceleration v´(0) = -2.3g = -23m/s²

In fall falling distance w(t)

mdw(t)/dt = mw´(t) = mg - cw²(t),

w´(t)/(w²(t) - mg/c) = c/m = k, which is taken from the former task using lower air ρ = 1.0.

Let´s define still one coefficient:

k/g = p² = c/(mg) = a²/vo², p = a/vo = 116.6⁻¹m⁻¹s

(m in two meanings: the mass and meter...)

w´(t)/(w²(t) - p⁻²) = gp²:

- p artanh (p w(t)) = (t - t1) gp²,

where t1 = 0 from v(0) = 0.

w(t) = p⁻¹ tanh(gpt)

and falling "height" (from the top):

h(t) = k⁻¹ln cosh(gpt)

Отредактировано Risto_Koivula,_Tampere

(2021-10-29 18:39:18)

If we take at fall the density of air according to the sea surface level ρ = 1.0, which also difines the final "costant" fall speed at the end f the fall, then we must take

k => 2k = 4.6 g/vo² = a²g/vo² = (1359m)⁻¹ at the fall w(t).

dw(t)/dt = mw´(t) = mg - cw²(t),

w´(t)/[w²(t) - mg/c] = c/m = k,

k/g = p² = c/(mg), p = sqrt⁻¹(31250) m⁻¹s = 176.8⁻¹m⁻¹s

(m means now now both mass and meter...)

w´(t)/[w²(t) - p⁻²] = gp²:

- p artanh (p w(t)) = (t - t1) gp²,

jossa t1 = 0 from v(0) = 0. (PS: for the fuselage this is not true)

p = sqrt⁻¹(k/g) = a/vo = (116,6m/s)⁻¹

w(t) = p⁻¹tanh(gpt) = 116.6ms⁻¹tanh(t/11.66s) ,

and the translation at the fall:

h(t) = int(w(t))dt = g⁻¹p⁻²ln cosh(gpt) = k⁻¹ln cosh(gpt) = 1359m ln cosh(t/11.66s)

 

For "large" x: ln cosh x => x - sqrt2 = x - 0,693.

1359m (t/11.66s - 0.693) = 10000m => t/11.66s = 7.35 + 0.693= 3.893 => 8.05, from which the fall time

T = 94s.

from which using now horizontally upper air deceleration:

D = 2717.4 m(ln(1 + 94s/10.87s) = 6159m

 

***

Автор: fi.pngRisto_Koivula,_Tampere, Участник

 

EUvsDiSiNFO" shares bullshit about MH17 and Almaz-Antthey´s facts about the details of fall.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/jit-chose … mh17-crash

" Disinfo:

JIT chose to ignore Russian evidence of the MH17 crash

Summary

Russian Deputy Prosecutor-General Nikolai Vinichenko stated that the Russian side provided all Russian radar data to the Netherlands, with documents indicating that the BUK missile system that hit the (Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777) was Ukrainian, but this information was ignored by investigators.

Accusations by the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) into Russia’s involvement in the Malaysian Boeing crash are groundless.

Disproof

The report advances recurring pro-Kremlin disinformation about the MH17 crash.

First of all, Russia's interest in aiding the JIT investigation is not a relevant condition of its membership in JIT. The crash did not take place over Russian territory and claimed no Russian lives, which precludes any basis for Moscow to be represented in the JIT. Dutch Chief Prosecutor Fred Westerbeke told a Russian newspaper that "if MH17 were shot down over Russia, I would have suggested that Russia be made a member of the JIT group."

Secondly, the "evidence" claimed by Russia, namely radar data and the "field experi-ment" conducted by the Russian military company Almaz-Antey, is only a small sample of misleading claims advanced by Moscow since 2015, some of which have contradicted one another. "

RK: As we have seen here, DSB´s "report" itself contradicts with itself, for the initial speed and deceleration values, which are enough to define the falling trajectory are from DSB "report". They don´t understand what they speek.

EU: " The BUK-TELAR was brought in from the territory of the Russian Federation and subsequently,after having shot down flight MH17,was taken back to the Russian Federation. On 24 May 2018, JIT stated that the BUK-TELAR that was used to down MH17 originates from the 53rd Anti Aircraft Missile brigade, a unit of the Russian army from Kursk in the Russian Federation. The JIT reached this conclusion after extensive comparative research. See another detailed debunk of this claim here. "

RK: Bellincat has fabricated the "telar transportation from Russia" video already in the spring 2014 to "prove" that "Russian army were taking part in the war in Donbass". The actions were strange and woke attention of usual people on the road. Pictures with questions spread immediately in the social media, even in Finland.

https://www.pirkanblogit.fi/2019/risto- … -trollina/

http://forumupload.ru/uploads/0016/23/c6/63/t781261.png

EU: " On the basis of the investigation conducted by the JIT, with the participation of law enforcement agencies from Australia,Belgium, Malaysia,Ukraine and the Nether- lands, the Dutch Public Persecution service will prosecute Igor Vsevolodovich Girkin, Sergey Nikolayevich Dubinskiy, Oleg Yuldashevich Pulatov and Leonid Volodymyro-vych Kharchenko for causing the MH17 crash and murdering all 298 persons on board. The Public Prosecution Service alleges that the four individuals cooperated to obtain and deploy the BUK TELAR at the firing location with the aim of shooting down an aircraft. For that reason, they can also be held jointly accountable for dow-ning flight MH17. The JIT conclusions were further corroborated by the Bellingcat Investigation Team. For the full Bellingcat report see here. "

EU is leaning on terrorist organization Bellingcat.

Almaz-Anthey´s real facts which rae according to laws of physics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tKmoygQudI

Отредактировано Risto_Koivula,_Tampere (2021-11-05 04:22:41)

 

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Автор: fi.pngRisto_Koivula,_Tampere, Участник

Alex написал(а):

oper написал(а):

    Посмотри на более массивный кокпит с БК 285

Glimmung в своей модели описывает Кокпит при помощи общепринятых норм и параметров, которые позволяют получить представление о моделируемом объекте даже не видя его фотографии.

Вот как он описывает Кокпит:
Масса - 10 тонн.
Форма (Сх) - 0.25
Размер - 28 квадратных метров.

Прочитав эти параметры Я ПОНИМАЮ что Glimmung моделирует падение ЦИЛИНДРА со сферичесским основанием сечения 28 метров в диаметре, и массой 10 тонн.

http://forumupload.ru/uploads/0016/23/c6/61/t811814.jpg

Собственно так, упрощённо кокпит и выглядит.

ТЫ БЛЯДЬ, со своим ПИДАРСКИМ БК=285  о чём вообще говоришь ?

ПЕРЕВЕДИ НЕДОНОСОК свой ёбаный коэффициент к общепринятым параметрам что бы я мог ввести их в ту же программу которую использовал Glimmung - ReentryModel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient

Drag coefficient

In fluid dynamics, the drag coefficient (commonly denoted as: Cd is a dimensionless quantity that is used to quantify the drag or resistance of an object in a fluid environ-ment, such as air or water. It is used in the drag equation in which a lower drag coef-ficient indicates the object will have less aerodynamic or hydrodynamic drag. The drag coefficient is always associated with a particular surface area. [3]

The drag coefficient of any object comprises the effects of the two basic contributors to fluid dynamic drag: skin friction and form drag. The drag coefficient of a lifting air-foil or hydrofoil also includes the effects of lift-induced drag.[4][5] The drag coefficient of a complete structure such as an aircraft also includes the effects of interference drag. [6][7]

cd . . . . .Drag Count = cdx10⁴ . . . . . . Aircraft type [20]

0.021 . . . . 210 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .F-4 Phantom II (subsonic)

0.022 . . . . 220 . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Learjet 24

0.024 . . .240 . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Boeing 787 [21]

0.0265. . . 265 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Airbus A380 [22]

0.027 . . . . 270 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Cessna 172/182

0.027 . . . . 270 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Cessna 310

0.031 . . . 310 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Boeing 747

0.044 . . . .  440 . . . . . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . F-4 Phantom II (supersonic)

0.048 . . . ..480  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. F-104 Starfighter  "

This optimized laminar drag coeffient can change 15 times bigger when the cockpit front part falls away from the fuselage.

Отредактировано Risto_Koivula,_Tampere (2021-11-16 23:48:14)

 

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Автор: fi.pngRisto_Koivula,_Tampere, Участник

oper написал(а):

Risto_Koivula,_Tampere написал(а):

    This optimized laminar drag coeffient can change 15 times bigger when the cockpit front part falls away from the fuselage.

Откуда вам известно, что в 15 раз больше?

Может в 40-50 раз?

The fuselage "tube" is about one half of the total projection area perpedicular to the trajectory. It can also somewhat go on gliding, but that does not help the drag of the open fuselage tube.

19423922_web1_L1-Boeing-737-Max-EDH-1911

Отредактировано Risto_Koivula,_Tampere (2021-11-17 20:55:04)

***

Автор: fi.pngRisto_Koivula,_Tampere, Участник

Risto_Koivula,_Tampere написал(а):

oper написал(а):

    Risto_Koivula,_Tampere написал(а):

        This optimized laminar drag coeffient can change 15 times bigger when the cockpit front part falls away from the fuselage.

    Откуда вам известно, что в 15 раз больше?

    Может в 40-50 раз?

The fuselage "tube" is about one half of the total projection area perpedicular to the trajectory. It can also somewhat go on gliding, but that does not help the drag of the open fuselage tube.

https://2qibqm39xjt6q46gf1rwo2g1-wpengi … 00x613.jpg

Отредактировано Risto_Koivula,_Tampere (2021-11-17 20:55:04)

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/lower-fuselage.pnghttp://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/img/final/PROBE_GRAPHIC_2.jpg

10. Lower Forward Cargo Floor

The jet’s lower forward cargo floor landed nearly five miles from the main debris field in Hrabove on a side road in the town of Petropavlivka. Local residents collected debris littered across the neighborhood and deposited it on this section of the aircraft that was once part of the forward cargo bay. Bundles of wires, air ducting, the nose landing-gear bay door and even demolished drink carts now sit on top of the silver rollers that make up the lower belly of the Boeing 7

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Hoerner_fluid_dynamic_drag_coefficients.svg/220px-Hoerner_fluid_dynamic_drag_coefficients.svg.png

When both motors have stopped working the cockpit has fallen,

the drag force fuselage  F = 250x250x50x2.3/4 kgm/s2 + 250x250x20/4kgm/s2 = 1797 kN + 312,5 kN = 211 tons.

The cargo, about 100 tons has fallen and  the fall on cockpit and other parts have taken also about 20 tons away from the origina "dry weigh" 138 tons.

In this impact in te second when free fall under drag begins, only that kind of mass works with full weight, which is screwed or welded firmly in the fuselage. That kind on mass which is flying, rolling, sloshing (the petroleum), streching heavily or breaking apart is not in full weight inflencing in the impact.

The fuselage does not "make hooks" while falling.

 

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Автор: fi.pngRisto_Koivula,_Tampere, Участник

http://forumupload.ru/uploads/0016/23/c6/63/t888166.png

https://books.google.fi/books?id=3HhUEAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=fi&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Автор: fi.pngRisto_Koivula,_Tampere, Участник

https://www.kp.ru/daily/28371/4521698/

Секретные свидетели и подброшенные осколки: кто на самом деле сбил малазийский Боинг над Донбассом

Спецкор kp.ru Александр Коц выясняет, на чем основывается обвинение по делу о катастрофе лайнера МН17 на суде, возобновившемся в Нидерландах

Александр КОЦ

ГЛАВНАЯ ЦЕЛЬ - РОССИЯ

7,5 лет расследования, четверо подозреваемых и, мягко говоря, удивительная доказательная база.В эти дни в Гааге нидерландская прокуратура представля-ет свой финальный обвинительный акт по делу о катастрофе Боинга МН17 в небе над Донбассом летом 2014 года. И запрашивает сроки наказания для обвиняемых - бывшего министра обороны ДНР Игоря Гиркина (Стрелкова) и офицеров ополчения ДНР Сергея Дубинского, Олега Пулатова и Леонида Харченко.

Но эти фамилии в деле - для галочки. Потому что главная цель процесса - по-весить вину за гибель 298 человек в той катастрофе на Россию, максимально при этом выведя из-под удара Украину.Собственно,нидерландская прокуратура уже взяла за традицию обвинять Москву в каждом выступлении - будь то зал заседаний или теле-шоу.

При этом российская сторона с самого начала была готова оказать любую по-мощь и международному техническому расследованию, и Совместной следст-венной группе (ССГ). Но Москве четко дали понять, что в ее аргументах никто не нуждается. Зато Украину (потенциального виновника трагедии) включили в ССГ. То есть образ России, как страны, виновной в катастрофе, рисовался с самого начала. И этот процесс активно поддержала западная пресса.

Чем же на самом деле располагает обвинение?

Радиоперехваты - одно из базовых доказательств обвинения. При этом нидер-ландскую прокуратуру не сильно заботит их подлинность. А у меня как у рос-сийского журналиста, вызывают вопросы записи, переданные следствию Служ-бой безопасности Украины. Потому что СБУ - явно заинтересованная сторона. А уж как на Украине умеют клепать фейки мы все знаем.

На протяжении всего расследования публиковались разные записи,которые за- частую противоречили друг другу.К примеру, разговор,в котором якобы министр обороны ДНР Стрелков, глава республиканской Службы военной разведки Ду-бинский и отставной офицер-десантник Пулатов обсуждают доставку системы ПВО «Бук-М» в зону конфликта и ее постановку на боевое дежурство. Обсуж-дают открытым текстом, даже не пытаясь зашифровать тип вооружения, что само по себе странно для людей с боевым опытом. На другой записи абоненты радуются, что сбили «Сушку» - украинский боевой самолет. Затем приходит информация о катастрофе «Боинга». После суматохи якобы Дубинский созванивается с опять же якобы Пулатовым.

- Это «Сушка»… (сбила - неценз.) «Боинг»?

- Да, да, да.

- Вы это видели, визуально наблюдали?

- Наблюдали с земли. Я-то сам в Мариновке.

Дубинский в свою очередь докладывает Стрелкову (если мы верим, что прослушка не липовая):

- «Сушка вальнула «Боинг», а «Сушку» наши уже «Буком»… (сбили - неценз.).

- Ага. Я что-то в это не сильно верю… - отвечает Стрелков.

- Да все равно на нас свалят, что мы завалили, - сетует Дубинский.

- Да понятно.

Публикацией этих переговоров суд поставил себя в странное положение. С од-ной стороны они готовы принять на веру разговоры ополченцев о доставке «Бу-ка», с другой - придется ведь тогда принять и то, что они говорят о «сушке»… А то получается: тут верю, а тут - не верю.

Качество рассматриваемых в суде фото- и видеоматериалов вообще не выдер-живает критики. Разные эксперты, как российские так и зарубежные, указывали на склейку кадров, монтаж. Более того, голландские судьи заявили, что следо-ватели не располагают фото или показаниями свидетелей, которые могли бы подтвердить доставку «Бука» из России.

Кстати, американский журналист Патрик Ланкастер проехал маршрутом, кото-рым,по мнению обвинения,«Бук» попал с границы к месту запуска.И оказалось, что на этом пути нет ни одного моста, который бы выдержал эту многотонную махину!

ТОЛЬКО УДОБНАЯ ВЕРСИЯ

Очевидцев следователи, судя по всему, отбирали по одному принципу - те, кто подтверждает версию о виновности России,подшивались к делу. Те,кто ставили ее под сомнение, например, свидетели, утверждавшие, что видели пуск ракеты со стороны Амвросиевки - где стояла армия Украины, - отметались.

Хотя таких людей с именами, фамилиями и открытыми лицами было немало, но Следственная группа, в отличие от российских и отдельных зарубежных журналистов, не потрудилась с ними поговорить.

Зато свидетелей обвинения на суде мы не увидим. Их личность строго засекре- чена. Это могут быть местные жители,а могут быть офицеры Украины, которые опять же - заинтересованная сторона. Но нидерландскую прокуратуру это не смущает. Ведь никто никогда не узнает, кто они.

ТАИНСТВЕННЫЕ «БАБОЧКИ»

Не меньше загадок и с боеприпасом, которым был поражен Боинг. Следствию во что бы то ни стало нужно доказать, что ракета была российская. Так в деле появились «двутавры» - осколки в форме бабочки.

«Во время вскрытия в теле пилота было обнаружено более 100 металлических элементов. Один из элементов имел форму «бабочки». Все они были исследованы. Большая часть состоит из нелегированной стали», - утверждал председательствующий судья Хендрик Стейнхейс.

Такие осколки могут быть только в ракетах 9М38М1, которые стоят на вооруже-нии России.У Украины-то только ракеты 9М38,в которых никаких «бабочек» нет.

Впервые «двутавры» появились как информвброс в украинских СМИ в 2015 го-ду. Тогда, кстати, впервые и было озвучено, что один из таких осколков обнару-жен в теле пилота. Причем речь шла о двух таких «бабочках». Позже всплывут и сомнительной достоверности фотографии рентгена тела летчика. Но так и не появится ответ на простой вопрос: почему из 1750 двутавров, которыми снаря-жается ракета, нашли всего два? Больше похоже на банальный подброс улик.

http://forumupload.ru/uploads/0016/23/c6/63/t936248.jpg

Единственный «двутавр» в теле пилота....

Производитель «Бука» компания «Алмаз-Антей», к слову, еще тогда провел ис-пытания,которые доказали,что самолет был сбит ракетой 9М38, без двутавров. Об этом говорит отсутствие характерных пробоин в фюзеляже - в форме бабо-чек. Дырки там от вполне обычной ракеты, как у Украины. Но для чистоты экс-перимента у корпуса самолета подорвали и 9М38М1, осколки пробили несколь- ко перегородок лайнера, вылетели и еще на 50 сантиметров вошли в дерево! Как при такой убойной силе двутавр мог застрять в теле человека, науке неизвестно.

Кстати, в 2015 году голландцы еще и объявили, что вместе с обломками само-лета обнаружились целых 5 частей ракеты «Бук».Показали их на фото. Сотруд- ники «Алмаз-Антея» сделали по снимку заключение, что при взрыве ракеты «Бук» одна из представленных частей просто ни при каких обстоятельствах не могла уцелеть, и сообщили об этом комиссии. 6 лет назад в заключении вместо 5 «найденных» частей ракеты «Бук» оказались лишь 3. Той, на которую указали разработчики «Бука», на снимке уже не было.

Кто и на каком этапе подбросил эти улики? Догадаться несложно.

РОКОВАЯ РАКЕТА

Кстати,никто голландцев за язык не тянул и не заставлял показывать элементы ракеты. Они продемонстрировали всему миру двигатель и сопло,на которых от- четливо читались серийные номера. По ним Минобороны России и установило принадлежность боеприпаса, пойдя на беспрецедентные меры и рассекретив служебную документацию.

Оказалось, что это обычная 9М38, произведенная в подмосковном Долгопруд-ном в 1986 году. 29 декабря того же года года этот боеприапас отправился по железной дороге в 223-ю зенитно-ракетную бригаду города Теребовля, Терно-польской области Украинской ССР.Имеется и акт приемки.После распада СССР это вооружение досталось украинской армии. Бригада была передислоцирова-на в город Стрый, Львовской области, и была переформирована в 223-й зенит-но-ракетный Стрыйский полк.С весны 2014 года он участвует в боях на Донбас- се, а установки «Бук» этого полка мелькали в репортажах украинского ТВ из зоны конфликта.

Думаете, международная следственная группа сделала хотя бы запрос в эту украинскую часть? Правильно думаете: нет.

МЕСТО ЗАПУСКА

Разумеется,в материалах следствия указывается точка в подконтрольном опол- чению районе города Снежного. К такому выводу пришли эксперты Аэрокос-мического центра Нидерландов и бельгийской Королевской военной акаде-мии. Расчеты траектории подлета ракеты были выполнены с использованием математической модели, не соответствующей реальным техническим параметрам беоприпаса.

Все характеристики есть у концерна-производителя - «Алмаз-Антей». Но к до-водам его спецов снова никто не прислушался. А они утверждают, что с учетом всех характеристик «Бука», подлет ракеты к лайнеру мог произойти только «на пересекающемся курсе», а это исключает районы Снежное и Первомайский как возможные места пуска (вероятное место - Зарощенское, находившееся под контролем армии Украины).

Кстати,сведения «Алмаз-Антея» подтверждаются самым неопровержимым до-казательством - первичными данными российской радиолокационной станции, которые были обнародованы и переданы голландской стороне, однако по неяс-ным причинам отвергнуты. Данные РЛС также полностью исключают возмож-ность пуска сбившей «Боинг» ракеты «на встречном курсе». Украина, к слову, вообще не предоставила данные со своих радаров, сославшись на их нерабо-чее состояние. Ну да, в то время, когда в небе над Донбассом активно действовала боевая авиация.

Многое могли бы прояснить на суде украинские диспетчеры дежурившие в тот роковой день, например, Анна Петренко,но они бесследно исчезли сразу после авиакатастрофы. И как говорят мне люди знающие, в ближайшем будущем может стать известно об их незавидной судьбе.

Кстати, прокуратура Нидерландов направила США запрос - рассекретить спут-никовые снимки,на которых якобы запечатлен пуск ракеты. Американцы в ответ прислали лишь меморандум с описанием деталей этих снимков. Их продемонс-трировали только главному прокурору Нидерландов по терроризму и предло-жили сравнить с информацией,изложенной в меморандуме.Он подтвердил, что описание - верное. Оно приобщено к делу, а вот снимки - нет. Просто поверьте на слово. Собственно, это и предлагает насквозь ангажированный процесс по Боингу MH17.

ВОПРОС РЕБРОМ

Почему не было закрыто небо?

Этим вопросом все эти годы задавался любой здравомыслящий человек.У тебя в стране идет война, переносными зенитно-ракетными комплексами уже сбиты несколько боевых самолетов и вертолетов, ты утверждаешь, что у ополчения появился ЗРК «Бук», но продолжаешь при этом гнать гражданские самолеты прямо над зоной боевых действий, в которой летают и истребители, и бомбардировщики.

И недавно вскрылась информация, которая долго скрывалась европейскими (и голландскими в частности) чиновниками, связанными с безопасностью полетов. Оказывается, в мае 2014 года Украина предупреждала страны-участницы Евро-пейской организации по безопасности гражданской навигации о неспособности гарантировать безопасность своего воздушного пространства. После публика-ции рассекреченного доклада чиновников нидерландского министерства инф-раструктуры и окружающей среды стало ясно, что евробюрократы настояли, чтобы полеты продолжались - искать альтернативные маршруты слишком затратно.

Есть еще один вопрос, на который до сих пор нет внятного ответа: а что с рас-шифровками «черных ящиков» Боинга. Обычно их содержание становится из-вестно самое позднее - через неделю. Но не в случае с Боингом МН17. Власти ДНР нашли среди обломков самолета и передали «черные ящики» сразу. А вот украинская армия в это время зачем-то обстреливала место катастрофы из ар-тиллерии.Чтоб уничтожить улики? И расшифровка бортовых самописцев в Лон- доне почему-то «не удалась». Потому что они содержали неудобную правду?

Не слишком ли много в этом деле подозрительных нестыковок? "

 

***

USA has not real information about strike or launch points.

http://keskustelu.skepsis.fi/Message/FlatMessageIndex/403932?page=1#403950

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKKLzQfuDJs

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/biden-malaysia-airlines-crash

An armed pro-Russian separatist stands on part of the wreckage of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane after it crashed near the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region, July 17, 2014.

Maxim Zmeyev / Reuters

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 downed by surface-to-air missile

07/17/14 04:47 PM — Updated 07/18/14 12:46 PM

By David Taintor and Joy Y. Wang

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which was traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur carrying 283 passengers and 15 crew members, was downed by a surface-to-air missile launched from a region of eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists, President Barack Obama said Friday.

At least one American citizen was killed in the crash, Obama said at the White House. All who were on board the jet are believed to be dead.

The airliner was flying at an altitude of about 33,000 feet when it was last seen on radar.

The United States has sent a team of FBI and National Transportation Security Board officials to Ukraine that are standing by to assist in the investigation.

White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest issued the following statement late Thursday:

“The United States is shocked by the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17,and we offer our deep condolences to all those who lost loved ones on board.We continue to seek information to determine whether there were any American citizens on board.

“It is critical that there be a full, credible, and unimpeded international investigation as quickly as possible. We urge all concerned – Russia, the pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine – to support an immediate cease-fire in order to ensure safe and unfet-tered access to the crash site for international investigators and in order to facilitate the recovery of remains. The role of international organizations - such as the United Nations and the OSCE in Ukraine - may be particularly relevant for this effort,and we will be in touch with affected nations and our partners in these organizations in the coming hours and days to determine the best path forward. In the meantime,it is vital that no evidence be tampered with in any way and that all potential evidence and remains at the crash site are undisturbed. The United States remains prepared to contribute immediate assistance to any international investigation, including through resources provided by the NTSB and the FBI.

“While we do not yet have all the facts, we do know that this incident occurred in the context of a crisis in Ukraine that is fueled by Russian support for the separatists, in-cluding through arms,materiel, and training. This incident only highlights the urgency with which we continue to urge Russia to immediately take concrete steps to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine and to support a sustainable cease-fire and path toward peace that the Ukrainian government has consistently put forward.”

On Thursday, Vice President Joe Biden said a Malaysia Airlines flight was “apparently” shot down Thursday in eastern Ukraine.

“I say ‘apparently’ because we don’t actually have all the details. I want to be sure of what I say. Apparently, have been shot down. Shot down, not an accident. Blown out of the sky,” Biden said during a scheduled appearance at the Netroots Nation conference in Detroit.

Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said during a news conference that “if it conspires that the plane was indeed shot down we insist that the perpetrators must swiftly be brought to justice.”

Secretary of State John Kerry, meanwhile, issued the following statement about the downed airliner late Thursday:

“We are horrified by the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17. There are no words adequate to express our condolences to the families of the nearly 300 victims. We offer our sympathies and support to the governments of Malaysia and the Nether-lands at this difficult time, as well as to all those whose citizens may have been on board. We are reviewing whether any American citizens were aboard the flight. The United States Government remains prepared to assist with a credible, international investigation any way we can, and we will continue to be in touch with all relevant partners as we seek the facts of what happened today.”

Russian President Vladimir Putin blamed the crash on Ukraine:

“Without question, the state over whose territory this happened bears the responsibi-lity for the terrible tragedy,” Putin said, according to the Interfax news agency. ”This tragedy would not have happened had there been peace in this land,if hostilities had not resumed in the southeast of Ukraine.”

A Ukrainian government official claimed earlier Thursday that pro-Russian separa-tists shot down the plane. The allegation could not be independently confirmed.

The New York Times reported that rescue workers tied white strips of cloth to trees to mark where bodies lay around the crash site.“As darkness descended on the field, the workers gathered in throngs near a line of ambulances and rescue cars. Dogs barked in the distance, and the air smelled bitter,” The Times’ Sabrina Tavernise reported.

The Ed Show, 7/17/14, 5:00 PM ET

US officials confirm Malaysia Airlines plane shot down by surface-to-air missile

Ed Schultz and NBC’s Kristen Welker explain what we know about the Malaysia Air-lines plane that crashed near the Ukraine-Russia border. An msnbc panel discusses the international nature of the event.

President Obama called Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and Malaysian Prime Minister Razak Thursday, White House press secretary Josh Earnest said. Obama also spoke by phone with Putin earlier in the day.

Biden addressed reports that American citizens were on board the flight. “Obviously that’s our first concern. And we’re now working every minute to try to confirm those reports as I speak,” the vice president said.

There were also reportedly dozens of Dutch citizens booked on the flight. Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte returned to the Netherlands from a summit in Brussels and said he had been in touch with Ukraine’s Poroshenko.

Biden said he spoke with Poroshenko and offered him U.S. assistance to investigate the downed airliner. Biden said a team of U.S. officials ”will be on their way rapidly to see if we can get to the bottom of this.”

Obama also addressed the crash briefly during a speech in Delaware earlier in Thursday, saying, “Right now, we’re working to determine whether there were American citizens on board. It is our first priority.”

“And I’ve directed our national security team to stay in close contact with the Ukrai-nian government. The United States will offer any assistance we can to help deter-mine what happened and why, and as a country, our thoughts and prayers are with all the countries and passengers – wherever they call home,” Obama added.

Benjamin Landy and Rachel Kleinman contributed to this story. "

 

USA has identified "a BUK missile" ("Gainful" or "Gadfly"):

https://www.ibtimes.com/biden-mh17-blown-out-sky-us-officials-confirm-1632062

" Biden: MH17 'Blown Out Of The Sky,' US Officials Confirm

By Dennis Lynch

@neato_itsdennis

A firefighter stands as flames burst amongst the wreckages of the malaysian airliner carrying 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur after it crashed,near the town of Shaktarsk, in rebel-held east Ukraine, on July 17, 2014. There were 298 people, including 154 Dutch nationals, on board the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed in strife-torn eastern Ukraine on Thursday, an official from the carrier said.

Photo: DOMINIQUE FAGET/AFP/Getty Images 07/17/14 AT 7:17 PM

U.S. officials have said outright that Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down with a surface-to-air missile, but are unsure of the missile’s origin.

Vice President Joe Biden said during an appearance in Detroit that it appears MH17 was “shot down, not an accident. Blown out of the sky,” and other American officials confirmed that a missile was fired at the Boeing 777, but are unsure who shot the missile.

A senior U.S. official told CNN that

*** just before MH17 crashed, a radar system noted a surface-to-air missile system tracking an aircraft *** ,

and a second system saw a heat signature. By analyzing the trajectory of the missile, investigators can try to pinpoint the source of the attack.

Biden spoke for a half hour with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and offered help with the investigation. He said officials from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) would head to Ukraine to assist the Ukrainian government.

U.S. President Obama and President Poroshenko stressed in a phone call that the crash site must remain as it is so investigators can get a full picture of what hap-pened.Both separatists and Ukrainian military officials accuse each other of downing the passenger jet.

Separatist leaders claim they don’t have weapons with that kind of reach, but repor-ted in late June that rebel forces took over a Ukrainian military base and captured BUK surface-to-air missile defense units, which could reach MH17 where it was at around 30,000 feet.

Two Ukrainian Air Force transport planes and one jet fighter have been shot down in the last month over the skies of eastern Ukraine. Ukrainian officials say a Russian fighter took out theirs and Russian missiles took down one of the transport aircraft that was shot down on Monday. That plane was flying at 21,000 feet.

U.S. officials have not yet confirmed if there were any American citizens onboard MH17 when it crashed, but preliminary reports say there were 23 American nationals onboard. "

***

In the materials of the "solution" the "research group" give 10 km longer shooting distance from the "shooting point" "determined" by Bellingcat...

https://criminalfilesmh17.prosecutionservice.nl/storyline

Screenshot%202022-11-19%20at%2001-31-00%

 

A Bellingcat´s member´s interpreretation  on the "Court´s" position on the shootind distace

http://keskustelu.skepsis.fi/Message/FlatMessageIndex/407699?page=3#407962

KimmoK

20.12.2021 08:48:25

407962

MH17 --- osumapiste

Risto Koivula kirjoitti 20.12.2021 (407960)...

> Lainaus (KimmoK): He on käyttäneet samaa osumapistettä kuin DSB,

> silloin Almazin laukaisupaikka-laskut osuu kohdilleen.

RK:

> Tässä on ensimmäisestä tutkassa havaitusta MH17:n

> katoamisesta, "tarkkuus" 2.5 km, tehty epähuomiossa

> "osumapaikka".

KimmoK: Ei vaan Almazin piste oli piirretty päin hongistoa.

FDR:n tallennettu reitti on 100% oikein ja sama näkyy SSR tutkassa.

FDR:n tallennettu osumapaikka on oikein, ainakin 250 m tarkkuudella.

Niistä ei Venäjälläkään ole ollut nokan koputtamista missään vaiheessa.

> MISSÄ TUO MEEMI NYT VIELÄ ESIINTYY, SE ON

> VARMASTI VÄÄRIN.

Sinä väität Almazin julkaisemia laukaisualuekarttoja meemeiksi?

Miksi Almazin kartat on mielestäsi meemejä?

> PS: Ampumamatka Snižnen karttapisteestä olisi 23 km.

> Mutta DSB:n aivopieruhan ei ollut KARTTAPISTEESTÄ...

Miksi sinä risto yrität vääristellä aivan kaiken?

Tässä on mitattuna etäisyys laukaisupisteestä osumapisteeseen.

Screenshot%202022-11-22%20at%2006-50-46%